Tae Kwon Do Schools

by Meda
(Pl. Grove, Ut)

Outrank due to age?

I just wanted to give my input on the mother with the daughter who was outranked by the instructors student.

Sometimes it depends on the organization and their protocol. I am 56 and have been studying, training, ran two commercial schools for over 21 years and yet my organization won't promote me to master yet. Of course they keep changing protocol and I feel they do this a lot to the women in our federation and what suits them. Sometimes, age shouldn't be the issue. Its even worse when we do it because we are the chief instructor and our kids should be moving rather than the student who has been training longer. To me age is a terrible way to base rank. It should be done according to who is running a school, who is continually training and helping teach classes and promote the art.

I love the Martial Arts and I have my own school. I have boys who are 3rd Dan ages 22, 25, 27 and sometimes, due to their work schedules are unable to attend classes, their promotion will depend on how active they are in their school.

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Meda is referring to the December 2008 issue of TKDtimes, the free newsletter here at Taekwondo Network.

In that issue, I shared an email I received from a mom and my response. To give you a better understanding of Meda's comments, I am including that original exchange as printed in Issue 7 of TKDtimes.

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June wrote: At the beginning of TKD class - is line up Rank/Tenure or Rank/Age? I've been told both with valid explanations for both. However, in my daughter's 1st school it was rank/tenure at that rank. My daughter is 17 and a 3rd Dan with 9 yrs under her belt. She plans to test for 4th in 2 yrs while in college. The problem is her current school goes by rank/age. In 01/09 an 18 yr old will be testing for her 3rd dan. She's the instructor's daughter and it will be awarded. Based on their rule his daughter will then out rank my daughter based strictly on age. My daughter does not feel this is accurate and we are trying to find what truly is the commonly accepted/written rule/practice. We just can't find it written anywhere. We can find a lot of other stuff - but no where are we able to find this specific guideline. We do see adults before children but wonder at what ages does the child become the adult. We presume 15/16 which is the age they can get a Kukkiwon. This presents another round of questions in that had my daughter never gone on for her 2nd and 3rd Dan's and stayed a 1st - would she then out rank an adult with her tenure at black once she hit the adult age? The question is not a matter of sour grapes. My daughter has worked very hard at TKD and competed at national levels and always medaled. She is very very TKD oriented in competing and teaching other kids. Can you tell me where I can find this information in a published form?

Thank you,

June

My response: Hi June,

I have been researching this because it's an interesting question.

From personal experience, I recognize the issue is complicated and I don't believe there is an actual 'rule' specifically. A great deal of the etiquette is based on the school and Master's interpretation of that etiquette.

I think we can agree that adults outrank children (under the age 16) at the same belt level. One of the inherent components of a black belt is life experience which is why Kukkiwon makes the distinction between a full dan holder and a junior black belt.

Within a belt level, I always give rank to my elders in age (regardless of time at rank) and rank itself. This is because of what I stated above about taekwondo study including life experience and not just training time. Usually, within my rank, an elder in age who has held rank for a shorter time than me will encourage me to go ahead of them and I often do though not always. I also expect a child or adult who is young enough to be my child to line up behind me because I am their elder. This does not always happen because children are less cognizant of this type of distinction and I must admit, it peeves me when they don't.

As an example, let's look at this scenario. According to the book, "Black Belt Tae Kwon Do" in Appendix E, a student who received a junior black belt (under the age of 16) can test for 4th dan no sooner than the age of 18. This gets back to the life experience aspect. Although your daughter might have studied longer and the difference between 17 and 18 is non-existent to me (at 45), the bottom line is your daughter would not be eligible to test for 4th dan. So if the 2 girls had started training on exactly the same day for the same duration, the Instructor's daughter would out rank your daughter.

As they get older, these kind of distinctions become fewer and farther and less significant in the big scheme of things as in this next fact. Since your daughter is already a 3rd dan before this older girl, she will be eligible to test for 4th dan first because of minimum time at rank (3 years in this case). Both girls would be age eligible but your daughter reaches time at rank first. Let's say she then achieves Master rank of 4th dan, she would automatically advance ahead of the Instructor's daughter at that time.

And as the girls get older, the age difference diminishes and your daughter would always outrank this other girl in my eyes.

Because, let's face it, when these girls are 28 and 27 or 38 and 37 it doesn't really matter. They would line up based on who holds rank longest.

The book I referenced is by Yeon Hwan Park and Jon Gerrard. The Appendix E is based on WTF/Kukkiwon guidelines at the time of print, 2000.

I'm glad to hear your daughter enjoys taekwondo so much. Tell her to keep up the good work and wish her all the best. She sounds like a great role model for other young women.

Regards,

Kalynn

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